This week, Chris and Rich discuss primary and secondary issues of Scripture. Does a doctrine being designated “secondary” mean it is irrelevant or should not be debated?
Show Links:
G3 Article – The Doctrine of Sympathy
STTK – On Rick Warren, Women Pastors, and “Secondary Issues.”
Blue Letter Bible – The Writings of Paul
Christianity.Com – Paul’s Letters
Ligonier – What is Sound Doctrine?
TGC – When Should Doctrine Divide?
Richard Story said around 23:40 into show”…Sufferage movement started WW 1 had not occurred; factories needed workers; they caved on the views of women’s role in society. Church later gave in & said women can do all of these things but when it comes to church, these passages only apply to church and women cannot serve as pastor or leadership roles in church but it’s okay to do so in the rest of society. Whether you want to hear it or not, when it comes to the issue…when Paul stated women are not to preach or teach or exercise authority over a man. It was not confined to the fellowship within a church, it was not confined to a church meeting. But he [Paul] meant that was to be applied to all aspect of life. “Yes I know you’re going to send me hate mail but I’m over it already.” [No, I won’t as that’s not my style] and you went on about how culture indicates in the 30’s how women and men can do anything the other gender can and so on…
Please, I would like scriptures to back up the statement: “It was not confined to the fellowship within a church, it was not confined to a church meeting. But he [Paul] meant that was to be applied to all aspect of life.” I listened to Mr. Story’s monologue in that timeframe a few times making sure I understood what he was saying. I then typed it out because I really wanted to make sure I heard and was reading it right. I read the entirety of 1 Tim. 2 then read the previous chapter and chapter 3, and you referenced 1 Timothy 2:11-12. I then dug into my study bibles (John MacArthur study bible specifically states that verse 12 indicates Paul forbids women from exercising any type of authority over men in the ‘church assembly’.). My ESV Study Bible basically said the same thing (The reference for both teaching & exercise authority here is within the context of assembled church). I also read 1 Cor. 14:33-34…as in all churches of the saints v34 the women should keep silent in the churches for they are not permitted to speak but should be in submission as the Law also says. Also Titus 2 specifically mentions who women can teach [younger women and children].
However, I’m listing women in the Bible that were in positions of power or – Ahem – would that be consider authority? Prophetesses [God gave women His Word and they told kings what they are supposed to do] teaching, or selling (business and home owners) in society outside of church assembly.
1 Kings 10: Queen of Sheba (or Queen of the South) (Mt 12:42, Lk 11:31) will rise up with this generation at the judgment and will condemn them because…
The prophet Isaiah’s wife was a prophetess.
Acts 18:26 – Priscilla & Aquila took [Apollos] aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.
Luke 8:3…and Joanna the wife of Chuza, Herod’s steward, …who were contributing to their support out of their private means.
Ex 15:20 – Miriam the prophetess led the Israelites (probably the other women) singing and dancing
Nehemiah 6:14 – Noadiah the prophetess
Luke 2:36 – Anna the prophetess, daughter of Phanuel of the tribe of Asher
Judges 4:4 – Deborah, prophetess, wife, was one of Israel’s Judges during that time…
2 Chronicles 34:22-25 Huldah, the prophetess gave the King Josiah’s men a message from God: disaster would strike the nation because they had forgotten God…
Acts 16:14-16,40 – A woman named Lydia…a seller of purple fabrics…(again, business owner and homeowner, no mention of husband) and when she and her household had been baptized she urged us saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord come to my house and stay.”
Proverbs 31 woman/wife
V16 she considers a field and buys it
From her earnings she plants a vineyard
V17 she sense her gain is good…
V24 she makes linen garments and sells them
And supplies belts to the tradesmen
Luke 24 And lastly, Jesus felt the women were important since they were the first ones the angels told after the resurrection. Not the apostles. But women…Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary, the mother of James and also the other women were outside at his tomb looking for Him while those scared little, excuse me [my sarcasm is starting to overrunneth], men were locked up in a room, fearing for their lives.
And of course, there are the not so nice women in Acts that were prominent that the Jews stirred up against Paul or Queen Jezebel or Queen Vasti rebelling against the king by not parading herself at his request. Just seems to me, there were women in the Bible involved in positions of authority and other roles of leadership.
Thank you for the comment. https://biblehub.com/commentaries/gill/1_timothy/2.htm Please read through the commentary by Gill which pre-suffrage protestants and the Reformers affirmed. You have to read the entire chapter and epistle in context. Also the Greek rendering of the meaning of authority. Strong’s 831 e https://biblehub.com/text/1_timothy/2-12.htm Stating this verse is for the confines of church is stating the rest of Paul’s instructions for both women and men and treatment of spouses is for just within the confines of church. Paul explains all of this chapter is applied to the entire Christian life when he extends beyond the first portion stating in all places and kings. I hope this helps. Yes, most commentaries in the last 50 years do try and pick this portion out of context and apply it to just church. Read commentaries from prior to 1900 and for 500 years post reformation this was understood. But like I said you have to read the chapter and epistle in context. Paul didn’t jump back and forth from all aspects of life and church in this book. Thank you for taking the time to listen to the episode and ask questions. You are welcomed to email us with any followup questions.
Hi Richard – I appreciate your feedback but still going to have to push back (just a bit and I did read your link on Gil’s opinion). When I was whacking my comments down a bit; I left out one of my sources: Matthew Henry’s commentary is from 1708 [since you want to go back that far 😉] and Charles Spurgeon claimed every minister should read his commentary [I adore Spurgeon!]. I also have this as well: Matthew Henry specifically states Timothy’s epistles were to direct Timothy how to discharge his duties as an evangelist at Ephesus where he was. In 1 Timothy, Chapter 2 in particular is for public prayer (v. 1-8), directions how to pray, and worship as in v. 8 men must pray everywhere lifting holy hands. His commentary on v.9-15 “Women who profess the Christian religion should be modest, sober, silent and submissive…Good works are the best ornaments. Those that profess godliness should be in their dress…Women must learn the principles of their religion, learn Christ, learn the scriptures. They must be silent, submissive and not usurp authority.
II. The extensiveness of the rules of Christianity; they reach not only to men but to women. Women are to profess godliness as well as men and to their honor it is to be spoken, many of them were eminent professors of Christianity in the days of the apostles, as the book of Acts inform us. The best ornaments for professors of godliness are good works. Women must be learners and are not allowed to be public teachers in the church; the woman must not usurp authority over the man but is to be in silence. But not withstanding this prohibition, good women ought to teach their children at home the principles of religion. Timothy from a child had known the holy scriptures; and who should teach him but his mother and grandmother?…”
So we have Matthew Henry 1708 commentary, Spurgeon’s support of Matthew Henry, then MacArthur and Wayne Grudem (ESV commentary) all indicate that this is specifically towards church assembly.
I’m addressing your written (and spoken) comments: the reality is we live in a fallen world. As Adam did in the garden who stood by silently when his wife took the fruit and he willingly took the fruit from her when she offered it to him. Men sitting down in pews or staying home to watch the game while women stood up and became preachers and breadwinners. I suppose we could go back to the “good ole days” of the dad that went to work and mom stayed home and took care of the house and kids in her dress and high heels. But then, why was there such a need for brothels? Sometimes that was the only available profession for the women that didn’t get married. Or should we go back to the days of arranged marriages and dowries, when daughters were sold by their fathers for land or businesses? As someone who has physical limitations & unable to bear children, I know what would happened to me in those “good ole days” and it would not be in a good place. Societies change sometimes out of necessity.
Is there a time in history when the church “dropped the ball?” Where was the church in the sexual revolution in America?
I will point out I never stated women could not engage in trade. In the context of 1 Timothy Paul is speaking of usurping the authoritative role and responsibilities of men in all society when he stated previously in all places. In 1 Corinthians he restates this in the role of church.
Richard Story –
My one request in my first comment (2nd paragraph) is I did specifically request scriptures since I view God’s Word as the ultimate authority over men’s comments and opinions to reinforce your point of view of women usurping men’s role in societal roles vs women’s role in church assembly, which scripture is already clear about. Thanks!
For the sake of this conversation say I am wrong and this verse is for the confines for church and marriage, then what. Prior to the feminist movement what was the churches view on these issues? Where are verses about females working along side men, where are verses about women being bosses or holding political office or pursuing careers and degrees. There aren’t any all of those things were a result of the godless feminist movement. What you do read in scripture is instructions on women caring for their homes and children and husbands. Men have God given roles and responsibilities just as women do. They are different but both important. God ordained men to be providers for their families and the wife to help him and take care of the family. Yes, this culture has fallen greatly as well as the church’s view of what the Bible actually commands. Divorce was never to be normative or women breaking a glass ceiling put in place by the Lord. The family was not meant to be a blended one with multiple marriages and multiple children by multiple men. The Bible is pretty clear on the family structure and what God intended. When examining these issues ask, where did these concepts originate from, the Bible or society. While I do think women should vote, reading the history of the feminist movement brings much clarity in how it perverted God’s Word and the role of women in the home and society. Thank you for taking so much time on this issue. It is encouraging to know others think deeply on biblical issues.
In my initial response, I did list several Bible verses of women in positions of power/political offices: 3 queens (I realized I forgot an important queen: Esther) so make that 4 queens, 6 prophetesses and a judge, along with Lydia, a business owner selling purple fabric; and purple was an expensive color so the fabric was sold to royalty or the very wealthy so she did very well for herself. Plus there’s Priscilla and Aquila, they both labored right along with Paul in the tent making business & risked their necks for Paul (Romans 16:4). No indication of what their relationship is (unlike Andronicus and Junia, a married couple.)
What about the verses encouraging women to stay single? 1 Corinthians 7:8 To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am. How were these unmarried women/widows supposed to support themselves without a male provider? They had to support themselves somehow, perhaps working right along side men?
As for the “godless feminist movement” you refer to, I would again redirect that movement back to Adam who stood by silently while Eve was being deceived; she took the fruit and he then willingly took the fruit from her when it was offered. There was the original “first wave” feminist movement! When you really think about it, there’s really nothing new under the sun, right? Perhaps, we may have to respectfully agree to disagree.
Thank you for your time and responses to my questions and doing so over the 4th of July holiday. God Bless!